The Dia Bondi Show

How to Friendship with Shasta Nelson

Episode Summary

Shasta Nelson is a friendship expert and is here to share how to deepen friendships so we can reach our goals. She shares the 3 things that need to be present to build friendship and her definition of friendship. In this episode you'll get the strategies you need to combat loneliness, guidance on where to get started when you want to deepen your friendships, and how you can feel more connected, seen, and loved.

Episode Notes

Shasta Nelson is a friendship expert and is here to share how to deepen friendships so we can reach our goals. She shares the 3 things that need to be present to build friendship and her definition of friendship. In this episode, you'll get the strategies you need to combat loneliness, guidance on where to get started when you want to deepen your friendships, and how you can feel more connected, seen, and loved.And won't THAT help you reach your goals? Arthur shares a bit about his workout routine and you'll hear about Dia's friendship circle and how they help her reach her goals even though they don't give a sh*t about them. Call us! leave us a question or tell us about how you've cultivated friendships you love and what they've meant to you. 

You can even give a shout-out to your besty on the show so everyone feels the love. Just dial 341-333-2997. Or email us at

Visit Shasta Nelson's site at

Take Shasta's Frientimacy Quiz

Get her newest book The Business of Friendship

Episode Transcription

Unknown Speaker  0:01  

My definition of friendship is any relationship where both people feel seen in a safe and satisfying way. And I wrote it down and put it on my sticky note right next to me. Yeah. And so it can be broad and I would say like, you know, here we are, Arthur and Dia and myself are connecting. And in this moment, we would have the looseness level of that you know, we're not confiding, we're not going to recommend pinky promising ourselves to be friends forever. But in this moment, we each want to be seen.

Unknown Speaker  0:47  

Hey, everyone, welcome to the Dia Bondi show a big podcast for women with goals. And when I'm saying goals, I mean, all the kinds of goals, you got business goals, you got career goals, you got financial goals, you got adventure goals, you got family goals, you got life goals. If you have a goal, we're so happy to have you here. And whatever kind of goal you have, and you're working on is fully legit, gets to be present. And we're hoping to give you some tools to help you get there as fast as you possibly can. I'm so glad to be here with you today. And I'm so glad to be here today. With my and our on-air producer Arthur Leon Adams the third. Hi, Arthur. Hey, everybody. I'm happy to be here. Yeah, I know you are. Love it. It's so much what's going on with you today? Oh, you know, I'm just pretty busy morning, did a little workout, and then just had to put together a proposal and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Yeah. The folks that are listening, maybe do or don't know. But I enjoy a workout here and there. That's something you know about me, Arthur. And I was so thrilled to see maybe was like a year ago, where you just were like, I'm starting to jump you picked up a jump rope like jump ropes, your damn jam right now, jump rope is in my jam on and off for many, many years. But I got into the habit of doing it every other day. Yeah, about a year ago. Right? And you're super straightforward. You just like pick up a rope. And you do you like you just do skips for like you just do skips and numbers of skips. That's it. Yeah, I do. I do hope. And I do running. Running skips. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's funny. When when I told you that first about it, you were like, Oh, yeah. So what do you like to do? I like to do things like cross my arms, and then I go to the left and the right. And then I try to do a double jump. Like, no, no, do I just have a rope and I jumped over it. I know. Like I actually actively resist the temptation to buy you like a weighted rope, a beaded rope, a lightweight PVC rope. Like it's like I'm actively trying not to get all up in your jump rope jam. Just know that. Like, it warms my heart to know that you're jumping over a rope in the courtyard at your house. And my whole thing you said, you know, you're talking about how you love working out? I do not. I hate it. But I do it. Yeah. Well, that's what matters. Yeah, that's what matters. That's what matters. So I have something on my mind today. Oh, yeah. What's on your mind? Yeah. So you know, since I've launched this project, all tied to help women helping women ask for more and get it like my main strategy to get this in front of as many women as possible has been a b2b strategy. So I bring workshops and keynotes to audiences for women's associations and organizations. And it's so funny, like when I send a proposal out, or I'm working with content or an events manager or something, one of the pieces of feedback, but like one of the things that shows up from executive teams, who sort of

Unknown Speaker  3:34  

I don't know that, I don't know that they don't get it. But like, they just there's a thing where it's like, oh, if we teach women to ask for more and get it, are we going to bankrupt ourselves? Like, you're going to come in and teach women how to ask for more and get it and we're just going to end up with like, 300 women asking for a raise, and our next on our next, you know, review cycle, and I'm like, you guys are missing it a, oh, god forbid a bunch of women asked for what they want, number one, number two, it's so it's like the moment I say ask for more and get it it's really easy for everyone to default to thinking that that means salary negotiations and promotion. And well it does to some degree. There are so many other things that we can ask for and ask for more of when we go to make that ask that matter, not just to us, but to our employers as well. Like when you have women who are making asks on behalf of the kind of impact and potential that they have for their own dreams for themselves internally and you enable that kind of, you know, ambition and I don't know and strength and authentic pursuit of a real goal. You end up like nurturing rock stars is what you do like you don't end up bankrupting yourself. So everybody just needs to calm down for a minute and understand that this is actually great for retention and engagement and for so for those of you who are worried that all the women are going to run out and all of a sudden start hammering you for salary increases like in a lot of cases.

Unknown Speaker  5:00  

When I have follow-up coaching struggles with women who are in my workshops and keynotes, like a few of them, maybe one in five, or are having a money goal not to say that that's good, bad, or otherwise, but like, y'all don't have a reason to be scurred most of them are like, how do I be successful with this new initiative, I think that I want to lead this new team, which I think is going to save the company kajillions of dollars, or I really see that there's an opportunity to do this, but nobody else is seeing it, I want to pursue that as you know, as an impact area, or a new role or a new function or a new way. Like they're doing things that are good for their career because they see an opportunity to be great somewhere, they see a place for their potential to grow. So like, just calm down.

Unknown Speaker  5:41  

That's really funny. And it's funny, too. You can just imagine I'm thinking, Oh, so these women are gonna know that they can ask for more money and that we might actually have it in our budget to give it to them. Yeah, and look it you know, what's funny, and I think they told the story not long ago is that the first person who said to me, dia, if you're not considering all the other asks that you have to make outside of salary, you know, comp package stuff and promotion stuff, like you're kind of missing the boat was an engineering leader, like she was an in house propulsion professional. And that's all proven to be true, I told a story this morning in one of a, in an exploratory call with a potential client, about, you know, a story of a woman who was this ran worked in sales in her organization for a long time and was looking at, at using asking as a success strategy. What she really wanted to do was change her career into design into the creative space. And she assumed she had to leave her organization in order to do that, that they were gonna, they were going to lose her talent to do that, that the only way for her to, to cultivate that new career to make that pivot and cultivate that new career was going to be out in another company. And what asked for more and get it meant for her was to go to her manager, manager, let her dreams be known, and for them to carve a pathway for her to be able to pursue that new goal in-house. And they managed to do that. And what that means is that she felt emboldened enough to ask for more and get it to take a risk on that organization and say, instead of me quitting, and assuming I have to go somewhere else to fulfill my dreams, what if it happened here, and that manager, that organization got to retain her talent. And by the way, when she moved over to the design team, and into the creative function, she brought all of that institutional knowledge from her sales role from her client-facing sales role that she had been doing up until that point. So how is that not good for everybody, it's great for everybody. And I just feel like over and over again, the more we are honest with ourselves and the people around us, with what we want, and where we what we see for ourselves, the more actually everybody wins.

Unknown Speaker  7:43  

Today, we have a little something to share that we got from a workshop participant. And what she said in this email was, I'd like to thank you from the bottom of my heart. This week, sessions were truly inspiring. Thanks for your energy, enthusiasm. Please keep touching the lives of many more women. I love this one. And it's just so simple. But I love thank you so much for taking the time and sending this knowledge to our Hello@ email at Dia Bondi calm because this, you know, sometimes I can get in front of a large audience and even a small audience and I and well, I get a lot of thumbs up in the chat because everything is virtual right now, you know, to get a note from somebody directly is like, so lovely. And what I see over and over again, when we do get these is it they are so much more they are so often about how this work is important to the women that like somebody individual experience with it. But then it's also, like, all these women that are part of this mission, aren't are on board because they want to have a rising tide floats all boats, I mean that she finishes here by saying that she wants to keep me She wants me to keep touching the lives of many more women like yes. Everybody who's helped me with this project, including you, Arthur has been like, yeah, how do we get on board to help with the thing you're trying to do? And

Unknown Speaker  9:00  

it's just so common for other women to say like, I want to help you not because I want to help me, but because they want to help get ideas and

Unknown Speaker  9:11  

ideas and strategies, not just from me, but from lots of places in the hands of other women. So we can all be elevated. So yes, thank you. Thank you so much for sending us a note and anybody listening could send us a note to Hello at Dia Bondi calm. That's right. This is the only Episode Five. But if you want to let us know what you're liking about this podcast, so we can keep doing it or what you'd like to hear more of. We'd love to hear that because we want to co-create with listeners so that we bring you something that is fun, but also very useful and delightful for you in your lives. So don't be shy. Yeah. And the other interactive elements of the show is that if you have a question about something about the show or an important asked in your life, you can actually give us a call at 341-333-2997 and ask a question and maybe Dia will talk about it on

Unknown Speaker  10:00  

a future episode. Great. And in general, if you're into the show, you don't just have to email us or call us. You can subscribe. You can rate it you can read a review, and help the show reach more people. So um, let's see, what are we doing today? Today we have the first guest ever on the Dia Bondi show. I'm so excited. And her name is Shasta. Nelson. She is we do have this guest Shasta Nelson. She is a leading expert on friendship, who speaks across the country. I mean, not right now. But when we are IRL, she speaks all over the country. And she facilitates events for all about connection. And she's been quoted in magazines and newspapers online in print, including the New York Times Washington Post and Reader's Digest, and has been interviewed live on over dozens of TV shows. Check this out, including the today show, and the Steve Harvey show, kind of feeling intimidated. But if you haven't, if you haven't yet seen her popular TEDx talk, you'll want to check that out. I watched it actually a couple of weeks ago, and she does not pull punches. Let me just say, enthusiastic and like, you know, right for the juggler, her previous books, she wrote three books. That's just why I invited her onto the show. I mean, all her work, is why I invited her. But her three books that she has out right now our friendships don't just happen, which is a guide for making new friends as an adult, which seems like such an incredible asset for intimacy, how to deepen friendships for lifelong health and happiness, which teaches us how to make our relationships more meaningful who doesn't want that. And in her newest book, she takes all of her expertise about friendships and puts it and applies it to the workplace. Her latest book is called the business of friendship making the most of our relationships where we spend most of our time. So I'm so glad to have Shasta Nelson with us today.

Unknown Speaker  11:47  

Hello, Shasta Nelson. Hi. I'm so glad to have you on the Dia Bondi show as our very very first guest for actually Episode Five. I'm honored. I'm honored. I'm honored. It's so funny. So I first met you Yes, at the clock factory where Arthur and I used to have a shared office space together along with a few other creatives and production types. I was hosting Maria Ross's book launch for the empathy edge, which I listened to. I listened to the business of friendship over the weekend, and I heard you cite her book in there. Yay. Yes. Yes. Also, side note for your book, like holy research. Wow. There was on that. Yeah, we'll talk about that. But um, but I remember I there was, we didn't get a chance to visit very much. But I was so compelled by you, for whatever reason you were there with your husband, I think. And I was like, Ooh, that's a Justin Nelson. I want to get to know her likewise. And I remember we talked about the potluck thing. Yes. I think you're right. I think you're right. Yeah. And then and then the whole world shut down. I know. I know. We were like, let's be in a potluck together. Because I never really loved potluck, until I became a full-on Adult and actually, as a parent, like a potluck thing, to me is the lowest stakes. A beautiful, generous way to cultivate friendships might like my favorite thing about a potluck. Well, so so during that time, when we were non-COVID, let me just talk about some weird friendship stuff for just a second. Maybe that maybe you'd be like, no, it's not weird. It's amazing. But I think it's weird. We would have these Sunday night potlucks at my house. We live in a neighborhood that's fairly dense. And all of us who are, you know, parent friends, as a group of maybe five core families hang out together, we have these evenings, we have this end of the week, potlucks are there. I think I extended an invitation to you a few times where I'm like, Hey, we're doing a courtyard at six o'clock. And, and like the court Yeah, the core group is like, no problem. I got a salad leftover spinach salad and I got this soup, I'm going to bring whatever we like, do a thing. And then when new families who we were like, oh, let's totally invite them would get folded in like, you know, mostly friends with the moms in these groups. Like it was always so fun and delightful to have these moms show up with their, whatever thing they thought was a paltry offering. And to feel like it wasn't good enough or they were gonna be teased. Or like it was you know, it's like a vulnerable moment to bring and share food and that like me and my friend Maya and actually some of the other women we'll talk about today would just be like no like you if you have to bring cheese and crackers girl we got like, Yes, I feel like it was set to like an initiation for folks to come in and feel like they could bring whatever they had and have it not be a problem. You know, I love that you just described like the friendship dream that so many people have like the idea of getting folded into a group that's so amazing or even having this consistent community where you know that these people will notice if you're missing or gone. And then I love the part about the potluck elements. Like for me, friendship is always with food. Like that's just those two things just go together so well. But the thing about the potluck I think it's so great is it takes us out of like to your point takes us out of the entertaining mode and puts us more in the connecting and sharing and breaking bread together mode, but we still come back

Unknown Speaker  15:00  

Without like wanting to impress each other, yeah, it has like built-in vulnerability, and you gotta bring it, you got to take the risk of bringing something to share. Even if you're a bad cook or you were really tired, you just had to go into your cupboard and bring a box of crackers totally. And yet, that's what we all kind of dream of is the friend that can just like come over with a messy house that we don't have to Wow. And we don't have to, like put on the whole entertaining meal, we can just order pizza. You know, like, That's the dream. And yet, we're kind of scared to like, go straight there. So that's a great story. So yeah, we never got to have our potluck shots. If I feel like this is the first one we're having right now. Awesome. We're bringing our ideas together to the table. There we go. There we go. Yeah, I promise I will come to one of your potlucks one of these days. When you give me more than three hours’ notice. I know it does. It does happen that way a lot. I just like send a text thread. I'm like, What do you have come up to come up the hill in three hours? Yeah, it's true. So I wanted to bring you on the show because of a or friendship expert, which is just in and of itself, completely badass. And then The other thing was that you know, I have in the last two years launched this project. It started with this project called Ask like an auctioneer aimed at helping a million women ask for more and get it using everything I learned from my wild and Goofy midlife impact hobby, I took on auctioneering for Women-led nonprofits and nonprofits that benefit women and girls. And that slowly sort of morphed into a mission to help put more money and decision-making power in the hands of women. So we can change everything for all of us. And as part of that, you know, we were launching, this is Episode Five of the Dia Bondi show a big podcast for women with goals. So something that, you know, has sort of stayed in my heart since I launched this, this new sort of mission and project is that I was involved with a Women's Network a couple of years ago. And we went to it was a digital virtual network that had sometimes sort of city-specific face-to-face meetups. And so I went to one in the center in San Francisco one night, and we all I don't know how many women there were there, maybe 15, or 20, there was a big huge circle and some flat in San Francisco, and everyone went around, introduce themselves and said like, why they were there. And for one, I was the oldest woman in the circle, number one. Number two,

Unknown Speaker  17:04  

it was remarkable how many women and let me the profile of this community are like ambitious, super smart, really competent, women who are, you know, living it in a lot of ways on their own terms. You know, they've moved from everywhere to pursue their dreams. They're working at, you know, gene therapy companies and investment companies, and, you know, VC, their VC, they're managing their own portfolios. They're like, they these women are like, on it, right? Mm hmm. And it was incredible to me going around the room. So many women in the room said, I'm here tonight, I do this, I work at this fancy company, I'd have this fancy job.

Unknown Speaker  17:46  

And I'm here because I don't have any friends. Yeah. And my heart just like, Yeah, I was like, it makes me choked up even thinking about it right now I was like, but you are all the women who are that sort of picture of ambition and, and you know, sort of getting what you want in life. And it was nobody used The L Word. Nobody used lonely, which I know is a word you use a lot.

Unknown Speaker  18:12  

And that just stuck with me. And I kind of put it in my back pocket. And then when I met you, I was like, I want to have this conversation one day, and this is exactly the time to do it. And you know, how, where do friendships fit into our, you know, fit into our lives as we pursue our goals? So that's, that's sort of like the seat of the conversation in my head I want to have today. Yeah, I love that story. It just puts a face and a feeling to exactly what is so so so common. And it reminds me it's I used to be a life coach back in the day. And it was life coaching, those people you just described, where they were hiring me for all kinds of other big, amazing goals. And to each person, I would ask, what are your friends saying? How are your friends supporting you? Because I knew I wasn't a friendship expert back then. That wasn't my thing. But I knew from the research that if you know, if they want to go start a company, but all their friends think that's irresponsible, there's going to be some kind of disconnect, but if all their friends start their own companies, that's a whole different thing. And so I was always asking, like, what are your friends saying about this? Or, you know, and to a person? They were just like, Oh, yeah, well, I mean, yeah, I just went through a divorce. And all my friendships are kind of up in the air, or like, well, I just moved here a couple of years ago, and I've lost touch with those friends. But I haven't made new friends or I don't really talk about this kind of thing with my friends. And I mean, it was almost to a woman and I've walked away with a similar feeling like, wow, like, just wow, that we are some of the most successful brilliant, amazing go-getters are feeling that loneliness. And that was really my deep dive into like, how can I help these women and start looking for resources? That really is what kind of put me down this road of like, Where are the resources? And like, wow, this is really dismal and there's so much compelling research and yet nobody's translating that and everybody's obsessed with romantic relationships and family.

Unknown Speaker  20:00  

And child relationships when the vast majority of the relationships in our lives are not those few it's like all the other ones that really for especially for women, but men to correlate so much to our health and happiness and so really that was the deep dive for me that kind of the impetus. So yeah, similar story where you look around and, and I'm often on stage now speaking to, you know, we often use the word lonely to think of this recluse that's hermit, this person with no social skills, we haven't seen them in a couple years, their shutters are closed. And I'm like, the truth of the matter is the loneliest people today are the successful ones, they're the ones who are so busy with so many relationships, they could be very popular, very scheduled, they're taking care of kids and family, and they're good daughters and mothers and fathers and, and they're often in careers where they're taking care of people and are charming and amazing, have great people skills and are liked. And yet at the end of the day, they feel like does anybody really know me? You know, am I really confiding in anyone does? Am I seen for who I am and my love for who I am? And that that feeling like there? Is that hunger for being really close to people? Yeah, there. So in that, I feel like when we look at our lives, there's like if our lives are a big dining table, you know, you look at like, okay, there's my romantic partner, you know, he or she, they sit in that chair, there are the people that I care for, you know, kiddos, maybe they sit in that chair, my bosses and the people that I report to people that are the power holders in my life, they sit in that chair, and then my network, quote, unquote, my network, you know, sits in that chair, and then like, there's all these chairs that belong to different things like, what, what are friendships for? Yeah, well, and our friends, our friends can be in some of those categories. And in some of those chairs, for sure. And so, you know, like, right now that I mean, as you were saying, the book I just wrote the business of friendship, as adults work is the number one place where we're making our friends. And so that network could mean it could hold some of our best friends, certainly our boss and our colleagues. And so our friends can be there, I use the word friend broadly, in those kinds of ways to recognize that any relationship, my definition of friendship is any relationship where both people feel seen in a safe and satisfying way. I wrote down, I wrote that down and put it on a sticky note right next to me.

Unknown Speaker  22:18  

And so it can be broad. And I would say like, you know, here we are, Arthur and Dia and myself are connecting. And in this moment, we would have the loosest level of that, you know, we're not confiding, we're not going to be promising ourselves to be friends forever. But in this moment, we each want to be seen in a way that feel safe, and then we get off and feel satisfied. And that would be the hope I have for any meeting for any connection. But obviously, that would increase in intimacy or in depth or in deepness, the more we practice those things. And so I use the word for intimacy, to kind of be the coined word for like the deepest level of intimacy. And I think that's when I'm doing my research. That's what most of us are missing. Most of us actually know enough people. Most of us know how to be kind to people and be friendly with people. Most of us when we're lonely, it's because we're missing the for intimacy, the highest levels of that where I truly feel seen in so many areas of my life, where it's not, I'm not just a mom in this group and, and a kick ass woman in this group and a father in this group and somebody in this church, but it's like some of those relationships where I'm known I'm seeing it feels good. They're there for me. And I can trust those bonds. And so I think for all of us, though, it's it's having a mix, we, one of the biggest studies that jumped out at me when I was researching this book was the

Unknown Speaker  23:31  

Dr. Niven from Ohio State University, I believe he said, People often think of happiness as this really ambiguous thing like just jello, it's hard to nail against the wall. And he said, it's not ambiguous at all we have, he took all the research studies around the world, longitudinal studies of all these different friendships. And he said, 70% of our happiness comes down to our relationships. And when you look at all the things that make us happy, and that made up but he put it into four categories of the quantity of our relationships, the quality of our relationships, our family relationships, and then our colleagues and neighbors and kind of that group. And so some of us do really well in one or two of those, but we the happiest people, the ones who feel most connected, have that kind of breadth of a network and depth and with a few people and they all and they all matter to our happiness. I suspect that women those women in that circle that I mentioned in my earlier story, or have a really wide net, maybe you know the breadth is there, but maybe the depth is not and there are two things that are coming up for me as I think about this one is like

Unknown Speaker  24:35  

I have had moments in my life. So well three things actually. One is that I didn't really have I don't have the only friend that I somebody who I could have that seen in a safe and satisfying way. You know, that is continued from my earlier life is my husband. I don't have any friends leftover from high school college because I think you know you speak about how frequency or

Unknown Speaker  25:00  

You don't use the word frequency. But the consistency frequencies want to get done with college, the consistency of being instead to group together is gone or, you know, being housemates is gone. And so as soon as that consistency is gone, there's no other forcing function to keep that consistency going, or for whatever reason. And I moved to the Bay Area after I had kiddos and I remember my mother in law saying to me, I was like, oh, Where should I put the kids in preschool? What do we need to look for in preschool? What does that mean, do the academics matter? Like, does proximity matter? Like what's you know, what's the thing that matters? And she was like, go, your kids don't care. Your kids do not care where they go to preschool. She was like, why you need to go to preschool is that you need friends. And she said, that's why you have to go to a co op. And we went to and registered for a co op, and I have friends now that are 1012 years old, that are heart. Yeah, that are totally in my heart that so so you know, I made friends, not my brother has friends left over from his kidhood that are rich and deep. And they are deeply connected. I didn't have that I had to make them in sort of in in my late 30s. Mm hmm. That's beautiful. Makes me think that I have had moments in my 30s as well, where other women. I mean, I'm in my 40s. Now, other women have sat with me and have said, like, I can see them sweating and awkwardly saying they want to be friends with me. And to not know how to get started. Yeah. So I wonder like for women who know they need and want more depth? You know, what's the first step they take? Yeah, and I'd let me just normalize what you just named. I mean, it's really incredibly common. And we have a lot of shame in our culture around like, if we have to admit, we need friends that there's something wrong with us. And it's so heartbreaking. The research actually shows that we replace our half of our close friends every seven years. So you think about who you're close to now, and chances are high that those a few of those names are not people, you were confiding in seven years ago, you may not have even known them seven years ago. And so certainly there are the stories, hopefully half of our network, our close friends, like you said, You maintained you kind of made it past that seven years and they can become more going through different life stage friends with you. But for many of us, there is a revolving door there. And that goes all the way through I do a lot of interviews, like with ARP and with retirees, I mean, there's a whole nother level of drop friends dropping off when we quit our careers. And so it's it's normal, I guess, is what I just want to say that all through our life, we have to become adept at making new friends. It's not something to be ashamed of at all. It's that those of us who quickly identify that and really the first thing that I'm always kind of big on is, is

Unknown Speaker  27:37  

kind of just prioritizing a little bit. I mean, it depends. I think my first book was friendships don't just happen. And one of the things I love about that book is I have an assessment in there. And I teach the five different types of friends. And what I love about that is that for some people, they're surprised that they're lonely, because they're like, I have a lot of friends, like, why am I feeling this. And so it's helpful to identify, well, I have these three or four different types of friends, but I'm missing this type of friend. And so for some, for some of us, it's lonely for a certain experience a certain type of friend, which can be really helpful to identify. And some of us are lonely because we just moved to a new area, and we truly don't know people and we don't feel like we belong, or we started a new our kids started a new school or we started attending a new religious or anywhere we're going to be regular is going to feel lonely until we feel like we have some relationships there. So for some of us, it's like I don't feel rooted in this place this context this job yet. And so that's our loneliness, it doesn't mean we don't have best friends, it might mean we need to make relationships in this space. And for some of us, it's truly what I was speaking to earlier that I really believe that the majority of us and the research is backing this up that it's not for lack of interaction, but it's for lack of intimacy. And so for most of us, I would venture to guess the best place to start is naming of the people you do know you already just assume you know enough people, I think many of us jumped to the conclusion that if I'm lonely, I need to go meet more people. And that might be true for a few of us in those first examples I gave, but for the vast majority of us we know enough people that we don't know how to actually turn the people we've met into friends. And so for Yeah, exactly that’s exactly like literally one night after a mixer after a gathering that I hosted. One woman stayed just awkwardly procrastinating for a really long time until I was like girl and turn it off the lights. And her husband called and she goes Hey, babe, she's like, on the phone. She's like, Hey, babe. Yeah, yeah, no, I'm having the conversation right now. Okay, see you in an hour. At that moment. She like she basically friend proposed to me or friend like, will you go out on a first date with me? And there was an incredible vulnerability in that. What I'm hearing you say is like we can actually take inventory of the friends that come from lots of different places in our lives and make a decision about who we want to deep who we want to deepen with. Is that what I'm hearing you say? I think that's the first place to start is kind of prioritizing the like pulling a post it note, don't make this overly complicated and just like write down the names of a few people that you wish

Unknown Speaker  30:00  

We're closer to that you will lean in when they're around what you enjoy being with, like, Don't overcomplicate it, but just kind of start writing down five, six names. And then just the goal is to start kind of prioritizing, and we can get into, like, what are the three requirements of every relationship, I typically wouldn't be encouraging the friend proposal concept. I love her bravery. And I think most of us err on the other side and could like, you know, practice doing a little more brave stuff. But it doesn't have to be trying to jump up some basil. Yeah, just do some, some dump somebody from what you know, from one to five right away. It's like, like, let's just like figure out how to just slowly keep adding in the ingredients that we know bond people, and trust that as we do that, with a hand a handful of people, we will find a few people that are responsive, and that we can deepen that with. Yeah, and to be fair, by the way, she and I are still really good friends, I give her all my leftover baby closed our baby, like with lots and lots has happened since then. And really her friendship proposal for me wasn't like, Can I call? Can we be friends? It was more like, I want to get to know you to get better. Like, can we find time in the next month to like have lunch? Or, you know, she was basically like, I've identified you as somebody that I'm really interested in learning more about? Can we find a way to do Can I Can you can you fit me into your life a little bit so we can get to know one another. It definitely wasn't, wasn't a deep end moment. But I did recognize that there was a little bit of like, making the offer to take me to lunch was in and of itself a risk, you know, because she was opening herself to me just a little bit. We have a whole culture around dating, where are they? There's protocol. And the rules are changing all the time, so to speak. But we understand that to get to know each other one of us has to invite the other person to go do something we have to hang out. And we know that if it went well, we need to do it again. Sometime. It's like we have this like these terms will eventually have a conversation that says like, are we exclusive? Or are you still dating? And like, we're like, Who are we as a relationship? What are we like we have these like steps. But with friendship, it's one of the most complicated factors is that we don't know who should be inviting who and is it? Like, is it awkward to invite and I can't just walk up and say You look great. Look, I have your phone number and call you and you look fine. And like yeah, there is a lot less acceptance and cultural familiarity around that. So it's going to feel more awkward. So in your book business of friendship, making the most of our relationships, where we spend most of our time, you know, the I have been in and around, you know, I have only had a job for three years of my entire adult life. I've been an independent professional, like my whole life. But I am in and around the world of like managing people and feedback and you know, goal setting, performance reviews, and all that stuff. And we talk a lot about our performance. We do a lot of this feedback stuff. But I never hear folks talking about managers or co workers talking about their relationships explicitly, not like not necessarily tied to like performance feedback, but just like how strong is our relationship? How are we doing on this relationship? Like it like explicitly talking about that what you talked about the third entity, you know, in your book, you referenced the third entity they're like, How much more? Can we talk about our relationships with one another? so much more. One of the assessments I go into companies and do is I have a healthy team relationship assessment, and each person on the team has to answer, basically 10 questions and each of the three requirements of relationship and they end up getting a score. So that's their experience of their relationship with their belonging on the team. And then we take all those individual scores and compile them to come up with Team averages. And it's one of the most fun conversations to start really talking about is saying positivity, that's your lowest score as a team. So how are we expecting to bond? Like, why would people want to keep showing up more often, if they feel worse when they hang out with you? Or like why this is why they're not looking forward to those virtual meetings every single day, like they get off more tired, more drained, you know, and so we can start looking at and kind of assessing it gives us this tangible language to actually kind of name and say, we know now what Bond's people together. And so we can actually look at and evaluate and do a better job of saying this isn't a personal attack. This isn't like something that any one person, I think that's one of the most powerful things about it actually, is that it's, it's often not because they're bad, or they're toxic, or all this kind of stuff. It's simply that most of us have never been taught how to build meaningful relationships when you look at the big job studies. Now, social skills are the number one requirement like we so often think we're in this technical age. But the truth of the matter is most of our jobs like once we learn the technology of that job, it's the same thing every single day, like are, we're not having to do that much more computer innovation stuff every day, it's kind of becomes routine. Whereas these interpersonal relationships that can just continue to be to be such a rub. And so we aren't we have not most of us have not been trained in our social skills. We don't actually know what to do we avoid conflict. We're afraid of rejection. I mean, so this is an area that gets really messy and I think one of the most powerful things we can do I love not that it needs to be a performance review, but having language for talking about this as a team or even just as a friendship to just being able to it's okay to come in

Unknown Speaker  35:00  

Say I have needs or when you do this I feel this way or like, how could we make this better? Like what, what makes you feel most loved, you know, and be able to actually talk about our relationship is so powerful. So I do this weekly thing with a small group of women we call, we call it the bitch and whine. And it's an hour right now, because we're in COVID. It's a zoom call. Otherwise, it's sitting on somebody's back deck, you know, and we just bitch and whine. And what we don't try to do is try to solve each other's problems. We just let each other bitch and whine. And sometimes w h i n e, and sometimes it's wine or whatever, whenever we could call it bitch and tea if people are bringing tea that day, but under Have you been invited to this one, this one sounds very fun. No, I'm still waiting for my invite on that one. Well, I can't promise it, it's gonna happen within three hours, you know, any further out than three hours went? Now just kidding. It's an ongoing date. If all they have to do is bring my complaints, then that's much easier than having to prepare food. It's pretty easy potluck. It is a potluck of complaints. That's exactly what it is. Oh, my God, I can pitch about stuff right now, if you want

Unknown Speaker  36:05  

me around, I was thinking about you know, so the question inside of this is like, what different how to friendships help us reach our goals, even when our friends don't give a shit about our goals. So like this group of women that I and I told them, I was gonna sort of gently throw them under the bus this way, but it's not really throwing it throwing them under the bus that like these girls, they love me. They tell me they love me. But literally, I like I don't think any one of us could save very accurately what each other do professionally. You know, one's a lawyer, one's an eye doctor. One is a pet. She does stuff with pet with animals. You know, I do what I do whatever the hell this is, you know, one of them's public health and like it like that, but we couldn't get so so what I mean is, you know, sometimes I'll say guys I'm doing this is golden. You know, they know last year, you know, maybe they didn't know, but I can say I have this goal. And they're like, Yay for you. Or if I like make a big achievement toward it. They're like, Uh huh. But when are we going camping next? You know, there's like, so so but for some reason, it doesn't hurt my heart. It doesn't make me feel ignored. It makes me feel like whether I'm reaching my goals or not. And I actually brought this up with him last night. I was like, What is it about our friendships that are friendship? That is

Unknown Speaker  37:26  

okay, when I'm trying to do stuff, and you girls are hardly even watching. And I think and my friend Maya said his beat she said is because we're here for who you are and what, not what you do. So in the business of friendships, in the front end of the book, you talked a lot about how you know friendships can lower our stress levels, which maybe helps us perform better, I don't know. So what are your thoughts about how we're headed, our friendships help us reach our goals, even when they don't give a shit about our goals.

Unknown Speaker  37:54  

I love how you articulate that. And it's one of the things when I kind of circling back to that first book, The friendship, the friendship zone does happen. I teach five different types of friends. And you're describing kind of the fifth, the fifth deepest level where it's like, we have consistency, we have vulnerability, we leave feeling good. Those are the three requirements of relationship positivity, consistency and vulnerability. And so you have that with them. And so often we can sometimes whether it's whether it's your story with its career, it's often happens to where women will say, All my friends are married. And I'm the only single one or one of the stories I share in that book is one of my friends was the first one to have a baby in that group. And, and she was just like, you guys don't know this side of me, right. And so we could empathize. And we can kind of love her and like what your friends do with you like, Yay. But we don't know what it's like to have a baby and be up all night long. And so I said, Go make a group, make some friends with moms. I joined a moms group. And she was I felt like she was kind of betraying us to do that. And I was like, No, that's a part of you that needs to be expressed and seen and supported. And then it was so interesting, because down the road, you know, a few months later, I was like, how's that moms group going? And she was like, they don't even know me outside of being, you know, Lily's mom. And so they don't know what I do. And like, and I was like, that's okay, that's what we're here for, you know. And so it was an interesting thing for us to realize, like, that second group of friends is the common friends, like, these are people that I'm here because we're committed to losing weight, because we're surviving cancer together. Because we're entrepreneurs, because we're authors because we're, we're in the law firm, you know, and so we, we have this commonality, and it's so powerful, because we do want to be seen in that area, we do need to surround ourselves with people who can support that give ideas to that, who actually know what's going on in that zone. That's what makes word friends so powerful, is they get my friends who are authors, they know what it means that I've published a book, whereas my other friends are like, yeah, you probably should book but they have no clue. You know, what goes on and what that really means. And just like I don't know what it's like to wake up all night long with a crying baby. We can empathize, we can cheer, and I think there's something so beautiful about having those friends who kind of know that experience. But commonality, while giving you a lot in a certain context is not what actually Bond's us and so we can have a whole bunch of commonality and you would be missing what you have with those friends that your bitch and wine group. What you have with those friends is

Unknown Speaker  40:00  

Friendship, where you've got the positivity, the consistency and the vulnerability. commonalities are only important in a relationship if they help us do those three things. And so you could line me up with like my twin and it doesn't mean we're better, we're gonna have any be any better friends unless we practice those three things. And so I'm kind of one of those people who say it's not either-or it's like, make sure you have those friends who know your heart, who you can be real with what you have there. And if there's a side of you that like is wanting to be a painter right now, or wanting to go write a book, or wanting to run a marathon, like rather than be mad at our friends, for not having the same goal or the same career or the same life stage, go find people who can support that side of you. And then don't be mad at those friends for not knowing your heart to like they serve different purposes. And it's okay, they both are meaningful in different ways. And on both sides help you live your goals, like it's powerful that your friend was able to say, we love you for who you are, we don't care if you fail all your goals, whereas, in a group of people who are just like you, you might feel a lot more judgment there, you may not feel safe being vulnerable if you're not making those goals, you know, and so there are different dynamics. And I think it's I think those of us who live with the most sense of connection, and love and acceptance in our lives, are those who know that different friends, meet, meet different needs, and see us in different ways that feel safe and satisfying. And they'll see different sides of us. And I think that's important. I think it's good. And I think it leaves you feeling more supported in more areas of your life. You wrote in and released the business of friendships last year in 2020. Why does that? Why does this book matter now? Yeah, it's, it's interesting. There's nothing worse than realizing you're everyone's working remote. When you're actually telling, telling the world it's really important that these friendships matter at work. It's interesting to watch. And I will say though, our work relationships still matter whether they're virtual or in person. And that is because we are spending the bulk of our day making whatever contribution it is, we're each making. This is the bulk of our day, this is the bulk of our hours and what we're spending our lives doing. And it is if we feel lonely, and that if we don't feel witnessed if we don't feel seen if we don't feel supported in that it is virtually impossible to make up our social needs. Outside of that. We cannot know that we don't have this like a bucket of personal life, that we can spend enough time building friendships. And so that used to be what I was spending so much time doing my first few books where, you know, here's how to make friends and was almost always in your personal life because we've often treated you know, friendship in that section. And I was like, I could talk to you in a one more phone call a week I could talk to you know, one more girls weekend, a year, and it's not going to turn this ship around. Like if you're lonely, the bulk of your day, then that we can't make this up. And so it's really important that it's kind of like sending your kids to school and hoping that they don't build any friendships at school, and then thinking that you can make it up in the afternoon play program or something. I mean, we just need all the whole time. So it's really important now for us to be having these conversations, do we how do we do this? If we save remote? How do we do this safely? If we're in person, we know that people who feel like they have a best friend at work are seven times more engaged. So if I'm an HR person, if I'm a manager, this is a really big deal to me, if I care about mental health, if I care about resiliency, if I care about your engagement and retention, then I should be asking how am I not just how many meetings are we having? And are we getting our meeting our product numbers, it should be coming down to what am I doing to help make sure my team feels connected to each other likes each other feels like they're supported by each other. And that really becomes if we can take care of that piece. And it actually so much of the other things that we stress about will actually play out better we have better customer service, we have more creativity, they feel safer brainstorming. I mean, the list goes on and on and on. If we can focus on making people feel like they belong at work, it's so important. And where can folks find you and do more with you Shasta well the business of friendship comm has where you can get the book and then a whole bunch of free stuff that you can do that. And then Shasta Nelson comm if you are looking for me to come in and work with a team or corporation or speak happy to do that, and sign up for my list there, you never know what I'm going to do. I don't even know what I'm going to do year to year. Like I do international trips and retreats and you know, it just changes all the time. So if you want to be a part of any of that you'll have to sign up for my listing. When I know what I'm doing, you'll know what I'm doing. And you have something called a friend Missy quiz that folks can take as well. Is that true? Yes, yes. If you go to Shasta right along the top is that quiz. And that's a great quiz for helping you kind of assess yourself as a friend in positivity, consistency, and vulnerability. We can measure the health of any relationship by those three things. I can guarantee anybody listening that you have never built a meaningful relationship without those three things. And conversely, any relationship that's not feeling meaningful right now, it's because at least one of those three things is lacking. So that quiz will help you kind of take an assessment of if you were to focus on one of those three things that would make the biggest difference to you feeling more connected to your friendships, which one would it be? Well, fantastic. I loved having you. Shasta. You're amazing and

Unknown Speaker  45:00  

This is gonna be the not this is not the last potluck of ideas. We're going to have.

Unknown Speaker  45:05  

Arthur and I want to be invited to one of those lines at some point. Yeah. All right. Great. I love it. All right. Thanks, Shasta.

Unknown Speaker  45:19  

She's a class act. Yeah. You know, I, she and I were giving it up a little bit

Unknown Speaker  45:26  

in the before we started, and I was like, you know, is a little nervous for me being of this first formal interview for the podcast. And I was like, I hope I don't know. Hope. I don't totally ruin it. And how could you possibly ruin it with somebody? Like somebody like that? Oh, yeah. Yeah. So good. says, Oh, God. So what were the big ones for you that big ideas today? Well, you know, that the thing that really, that stood out to me, and it's something I've actually thought about before, and my wife and I have talked about, but it's, you know, the acquiring of new friends when you're older. And the idea that you don't necessarily have to go out and try to meet new people, there are probably lots of people that you like and might want to be friends with, that you already know, acquaintances, or work friends, or whatever. And, you know, my wife and I have talked about it many times, like, Hey, we should become real friends with so and so or this couple or this person. Like, they're really cool. Like we should. You know, of course, this last year, the pandemic has made it a lot harder to actually, you know, hang out with people, and I'm just so sick of like, zoom Hangouts and stuff. So yeah. But yeah, it's something that, that stood out to me. And the idea of actually like, writing down on, like, a list of people that these are cool people. Let's become friends with them. Yeah. And not and not doing it in a formal way. Like you were saying, Yeah, what are your friends? Did you But yeah, but just, you know, reaching out to them trying to hang out, you know, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, I think that's, that stood out for me, too. Is there anything else before I just go off on? Like, what stood out? For me? That was my main, that was the main thing that like, felt really personally relevant to me. Yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, I mean, I've been married for 21 years. And, you know, the sort of three aspects of friendship, you know,

Unknown Speaker  47:17  

that she talks about are ones that like, I think we've been pretty active, about, about doing in our marriage. And that's what's helped and I think, helped us stay, you know, not just married, but like actually connected. And

Unknown Speaker  47:30  

I think it's really well, two things. One is that I think we can intentionally just activate these tools in the friendships that we do want to deepen or maintain in a real way. The other thing that I thought was really interesting was when she said that, you know, that we research shows that every seven years, we may cycle through some friendships, which implies that either deep friendships become shallower, or maybe they end for when we know, you know, for one reason or another, either abruptly or otherwise. And, you know, there is potential for loss in all of these. And it's just part of the cycle of connections, part of the cycle of our lives. I mean, for in her book, the business of friendship, you know, leaving a job where you've cultivated friendships that you depend on, has got to have a real loss in it. And so I think, you know, there's a vulnerability as well, investing in a friendship, knowing that, you know, if it ends and when it ends, or changes that we have to just experience that loss, and have that be part of the experience of our friendships. Oh, yeah. And a lot of things can affect that, like, you know, I grew up in Vermont, first 20 something years, 21 years, and then I moved out here, and all my close friends from back there with a handful of people who actually moved out here as well. They're still I consider my friends and I see them when I'm home, but I don't keep in touch with them. I don't talk to them regularly. There's like one guy from high school that I still keep in touch with regularly and we text and we talk on the phone every once in a while. But that's kind of it and you know, I remember having to accept that when I was still in my 20s that Oh, these people I moved to California and I'm not gonna be close with most of these people anymore. Right? Because consistency which is one of the three aspects you know, of a friendship is is nearly impossible when you're 3000 miles away from one another. Yeah, so that's really yeah, that's really that's real. And you know, when I think about friendships and how they reach our I love that she said as you can, you can have a whole portfolio of friends your current when she called common friends, where they're they're looking to, you know, achieve similar goals in a cemetery similar territory and they can serve that need and then you have friends like my bitchin wearing crew who you know, are a place to relax and a place to feel seen and a more sort of quiet way, maybe not tied to outcomes, which actually does help me with my goals because

Unknown Speaker  50:00  

I have respite, you know from being in sort of that that I don't know achievement mode or in that striving mode and that's a really beautiful and cherished thing for me So which one crew they got to you all right I think that was a great episode today or I'm so happy to have done this with you and with Shasta and I'm gonna see all around the bend. Yeah. All right. Goodbye, everybody.

Unknown Speaker  50:27  

This Podcast is a production of Dia Bondi Communications and is produced and musicified by Arthur Leon Adams the third aka baby a. You can like, share, rate, and subscribe to Apple Podcasts, Google Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Find us at or follow us on Instagram at The Dia Bondi Show. Want to shoot us a question for the show? Call us at 341-333-2997.